Interview / MAKE ME a face
Monday 31 March 2014, 2 p.m.
With Thierry Brunfaut (BaseDesign), Hugo Puttaert (visionandfactory), Hilde De Decker, Hilde Van der Heyden, Pia Clauwaert, Liesbet Bussche, Shana Teugels, Clarisse Bruynbroeck, Sandra Buyck, Octave Vandeweghe, Charlotte Van de Velde and Eline Willemarck.
This interview is a report of the round-table discussion with Thierry Brunfaut and Hugo Puttaert, attended by the Afterschool research team, master students and alumni of the Jewellery Department of St Lucas University College of Art and Design Antwerp.
With Thierry Brunfaut (BaseDesign), Hugo Puttaert (visionandfactory), Hilde De Decker, Hilde Van der Heyden, Pia Clauwaert, Liesbet Bussche, Shana Teugels, Clarisse Bruynbroeck, Sandra Buyck, Octave Vandeweghe, Charlotte Van de Velde and Eline Willemarck.
This interview is a report of the round-table discussion with Thierry Brunfaut and Hugo Puttaert, attended by the Afterschool research team, master students and alumni of the Jewellery Department of St Lucas University College of Art and Design Antwerp.
Thierry: Shall I begin with a brief introduction of BaseDesign? BaseDesign does branding, but we hope we do it in a different way. Five years ago, we radically changed our way of working. Having young assistants around us the whole time would kill us. So we decided to rejuvenate BaseDesign, because we want this company to live forever. It’s not me, assisted by young people, who does the work, but I’m directing people on how to grow so that each of them can develop projects independently within this office. It has changed my work a lot and I love it. We changed this way of working on the advice of an external coach.
Liesbet: What has changed?
Thierry: We ask the staff – even the trainees – to be autonomous. We try to build a climate where people can take their own decisions and responsibilities. Our staff can organize their work as they wish, but we have several meetings a week. During the first meeting on Tuesday, everyone explains what their challenges are for that week. Someone puts this on paper. The second meeting is on Wednesday, when the whole company meets the creatives and discusses the proposals put forward on Tuesday. This is the moment to ask the others for help. At lunchtime on Thursday, someone cooks and we all eat together. At the end we check the challenges. If you have a yes on everything, you had a good week. If not, we discuss what went wrong. And we take the time to discuss. It was extremely hard to introduce this way of working. Nobody had ‘time’ for these meetings. But now we work like this in all four BaseDesign studios – in Brussels, Geneva, New York and Santiago de Chile.
Liesbet: BaseDesign promotes itself with the slogan ‘specialized in not specializing’. What do you mean by this?
Thierry: We mean that we are curious and that we try things that we have not done before. At the moment we are working with Rem Koolhaas although we never did anything like this before. It’s about ‘attitude’. Because of this we lose clients since there is no security, but it’s how we want to do it. We agree on the fact that clients have to take a risk with us. That’s possible because we are not too big. We don’t see ourselves as artists, but as designers; there is always a question from a client.
Hugo: In regular branding agencies they work with a strategy; the design comes afterwards.
Hilde: What strategy?
Thierry: We don’t do marketing, but branding. Two years ago, Delvaux came to us, because they needed a change – that’s the main reason for companies to come to us. Nowadays companies have to change so much: how to behave, how to define themselves, who they are, where they want to be in two years, etc. We visited Delvaux and interviewed the employees with whom we could define how the cooperation could proceed. Branding is basically to help companies evolve. Or even more, branding is in fact not meant for the brands but for the people in the street to understand what the company means.
Liesbet: What has changed?
Thierry: We ask the staff – even the trainees – to be autonomous. We try to build a climate where people can take their own decisions and responsibilities. Our staff can organize their work as they wish, but we have several meetings a week. During the first meeting on Tuesday, everyone explains what their challenges are for that week. Someone puts this on paper. The second meeting is on Wednesday, when the whole company meets the creatives and discusses the proposals put forward on Tuesday. This is the moment to ask the others for help. At lunchtime on Thursday, someone cooks and we all eat together. At the end we check the challenges. If you have a yes on everything, you had a good week. If not, we discuss what went wrong. And we take the time to discuss. It was extremely hard to introduce this way of working. Nobody had ‘time’ for these meetings. But now we work like this in all four BaseDesign studios – in Brussels, Geneva, New York and Santiago de Chile.
Liesbet: BaseDesign promotes itself with the slogan ‘specialized in not specializing’. What do you mean by this?
Thierry: We mean that we are curious and that we try things that we have not done before. At the moment we are working with Rem Koolhaas although we never did anything like this before. It’s about ‘attitude’. Because of this we lose clients since there is no security, but it’s how we want to do it. We agree on the fact that clients have to take a risk with us. That’s possible because we are not too big. We don’t see ourselves as artists, but as designers; there is always a question from a client.
Hugo: In regular branding agencies they work with a strategy; the design comes afterwards.
Hilde: What strategy?
Thierry: We don’t do marketing, but branding. Two years ago, Delvaux came to us, because they needed a change – that’s the main reason for companies to come to us. Nowadays companies have to change so much: how to behave, how to define themselves, who they are, where they want to be in two years, etc. We visited Delvaux and interviewed the employees with whom we could define how the cooperation could proceed. Branding is basically to help companies evolve. Or even more, branding is in fact not meant for the brands but for the people in the street to understand what the company means.
Liesbet: What is the difference in working with a small company or a big brand?
Thierry: Fear. Small companies have more fear. What is more difficult and complicated in large companies is the number of people you’re working with. The complexity of the question is different.
Liesbet: Can branding mean something for the launch of a young designer?
Clarisse: What do we need to do?
Thierry: Take COS, what you are wearing today. They have good prices and a good style – the whole atmosphere – they do something in your mind.
Hilde: Is it ‘brain branding’?
Hugo: Delvaux is established. Once people have a connection and enough trust in you, you become a brand too.
Thierry: What is very interesting is that brands are like people. And do we, people, behave like brands? If you do what you like, the key is ‘how to behave in the outside world’ and ‘what are you going to be’. You all have to present yourselves and to talk about your own work when you graduate. We all hate doing that in the beginning, but that is what is coming. It’s the same with Delvaux when they want to conquer the Chinese market. There they also ask ‘what’s your name and where are you from’. We built the entire campaign on this idea: ‘Delvaux’ from the ‘Kingdom of Belgium’. So I mean, be yourself and talk about your strengths and weaknesses. Be yourself and don’t try to be anyone else. Find the good words and the right attitude.
Thierry: Fear. Small companies have more fear. What is more difficult and complicated in large companies is the number of people you’re working with. The complexity of the question is different.
Liesbet: Can branding mean something for the launch of a young designer?
Clarisse: What do we need to do?
Thierry: Take COS, what you are wearing today. They have good prices and a good style – the whole atmosphere – they do something in your mind.
Hilde: Is it ‘brain branding’?
Hugo: Delvaux is established. Once people have a connection and enough trust in you, you become a brand too.
Thierry: What is very interesting is that brands are like people. And do we, people, behave like brands? If you do what you like, the key is ‘how to behave in the outside world’ and ‘what are you going to be’. You all have to present yourselves and to talk about your own work when you graduate. We all hate doing that in the beginning, but that is what is coming. It’s the same with Delvaux when they want to conquer the Chinese market. There they also ask ‘what’s your name and where are you from’. We built the entire campaign on this idea: ‘Delvaux’ from the ‘Kingdom of Belgium’. So I mean, be yourself and talk about your strengths and weaknesses. Be yourself and don’t try to be anyone else. Find the good words and the right attitude.
[...]
Clarisse: Is it better to use a brand name than your own name?
Thierry: I can’t answer that question. Just think for yourself what the difference between them would be. What is the difference between a person and a brand? Very often the brand is the person, and BaseDesign helps a client to separate that. The brand should become an individual separate from themselves, otherwise they would become really unhappy. This separation is necessary because a company should be ‘fed’ by other people too and so the brand should be autonomous. But the brand can be any name. Think of H&M – Hennes & Mauritz - as a personal name. There are a lot of super stupid names, but most important is what you do with it.
Liesbet: But how do you translate the fact that you are not an individual but a brand?
Thierry: The product is the key. Chanel does everything you like. We’re attracted to Chanel because it’s clear; it shows what they are. They produce all sorts of things, like perfumes, clothes, jewellery, etc. but it all reads as Chanel. Working for such a company is a very demanding task for a studio because as a good company, they believe in their values and how to express that belief.
Liesbet: I see that success is not always related to good work.
Hugo: You must be aware that there are a lot of ways to be successful. ‘What is success?’ is the first question. Aren’t we too blind?
Thierry: I find the idea of success extremely interesting. If I ask ten clients how they see success, I will get ten different answers – and it’s not about earning lots of money.
Liesbet: In previous discussions we were told that you have to set a goal for yourself and that you have to take every decision with that goal in mind.
Thierry: BaseDesign was put on the map in 2001 when we did the branding of MOMA in NY. Some students of mine thought that we had political strategies that helped us get the job. But it took us ten years to get there! It’s stupid to think of a goal from the beginning. Just start with what you like and what you want to do.
Hugo: It only leads to frustration otherwise.
Thierry: And free yourself of being perfect. The key is not to make the same mistake twice.
Thierry: I can’t answer that question. Just think for yourself what the difference between them would be. What is the difference between a person and a brand? Very often the brand is the person, and BaseDesign helps a client to separate that. The brand should become an individual separate from themselves, otherwise they would become really unhappy. This separation is necessary because a company should be ‘fed’ by other people too and so the brand should be autonomous. But the brand can be any name. Think of H&M – Hennes & Mauritz - as a personal name. There are a lot of super stupid names, but most important is what you do with it.
Liesbet: But how do you translate the fact that you are not an individual but a brand?
Thierry: The product is the key. Chanel does everything you like. We’re attracted to Chanel because it’s clear; it shows what they are. They produce all sorts of things, like perfumes, clothes, jewellery, etc. but it all reads as Chanel. Working for such a company is a very demanding task for a studio because as a good company, they believe in their values and how to express that belief.
Liesbet: I see that success is not always related to good work.
Hugo: You must be aware that there are a lot of ways to be successful. ‘What is success?’ is the first question. Aren’t we too blind?
Thierry: I find the idea of success extremely interesting. If I ask ten clients how they see success, I will get ten different answers – and it’s not about earning lots of money.
Liesbet: In previous discussions we were told that you have to set a goal for yourself and that you have to take every decision with that goal in mind.
Thierry: BaseDesign was put on the map in 2001 when we did the branding of MOMA in NY. Some students of mine thought that we had political strategies that helped us get the job. But it took us ten years to get there! It’s stupid to think of a goal from the beginning. Just start with what you like and what you want to do.
Hugo: It only leads to frustration otherwise.
Thierry: And free yourself of being perfect. The key is not to make the same mistake twice.
[...]
Hilde: How should you tackle the branding of an artist?
Thierry: You have to trust what you want. Then you have to attract people and persuade them of your plan.
Liesbet: But how do you communicate this plan?
Thierry: It’s extremely difficult to talk about yourself, to define yourself, but it has to be done. Practise with other people. Try the ‘cocktail question’. You go to the bar to order drinks. At the bar there is someone who starts talking to you. And he asks, what do you do? You should be able to answer that question in one simple sentence.
Hugo: A simple blog can be enough. Nowadays there are so many communication possibilities. This wasn’t the case twenty years ago, but the basic idea is still the same: articulate what you are doing!
Thierry: My main advice is to write. Write a lot. When you write, you put everything in words. It triggers ideas in the head of people. To define BaseDesign, I say: ‘We are a company that works four days a week’. This triggers a lot. Be prepared, you have to be strategic and (self-)confident.
Thierry: You have to trust what you want. Then you have to attract people and persuade them of your plan.
Liesbet: But how do you communicate this plan?
Thierry: It’s extremely difficult to talk about yourself, to define yourself, but it has to be done. Practise with other people. Try the ‘cocktail question’. You go to the bar to order drinks. At the bar there is someone who starts talking to you. And he asks, what do you do? You should be able to answer that question in one simple sentence.
Hugo: A simple blog can be enough. Nowadays there are so many communication possibilities. This wasn’t the case twenty years ago, but the basic idea is still the same: articulate what you are doing!
Thierry: My main advice is to write. Write a lot. When you write, you put everything in words. It triggers ideas in the head of people. To define BaseDesign, I say: ‘We are a company that works four days a week’. This triggers a lot. Be prepared, you have to be strategic and (self-)confident.
[...]
Liesbet: According to Organisation in Design, our previous interlocutor, a change in PR can lead to a change in work. Can branding be stronger than the work itself?
Thierry: For Maison Dandoy, a famous biscuit company in Brussels branded by BaseDesign, the packaging would never work if the cookies were no good. A brand is like a person, like an identity. I can’t do anything about the work, but I can change your personality. BaseDesign helps companies define that – refining their roots and their beliefs. So of course, it works both ways.
Charlotte: You work pro bono. Is this something you would recommend to young people?
Thierry: We receive a huge number of requests for free work; we do limited pro bono. But the problem is the rules of the games. The client has to understand that you are giving them a present – they don’t pay and they don’t commit – and that you are happy to do it, but you have to frame it. And if necessary, remind them of the deal. You could also ask for a return, like free cookies.
Thierry: For Maison Dandoy, a famous biscuit company in Brussels branded by BaseDesign, the packaging would never work if the cookies were no good. A brand is like a person, like an identity. I can’t do anything about the work, but I can change your personality. BaseDesign helps companies define that – refining their roots and their beliefs. So of course, it works both ways.
Charlotte: You work pro bono. Is this something you would recommend to young people?
Thierry: We receive a huge number of requests for free work; we do limited pro bono. But the problem is the rules of the games. The client has to understand that you are giving them a present – they don’t pay and they don’t commit – and that you are happy to do it, but you have to frame it. And if necessary, remind them of the deal. You could also ask for a return, like free cookies.
[...]
Liesbet: Contemporary jewellery design is a niche, both inside and outside the art world. Do you think it’s possible to get out of that niche?
Thierry: It makes sense. Don’t design for designers, but for people. Other designers are your competitors and they won’t buy from you. This niche is your comfort zone.
Liesbet: But how do you get your work outside this hermetic zone?
Thierry: I would start with people close to you. To give an example, maybe you now a friend who works in a shop where you can show your work. What’s more, make your work available on Facebook and the Internet. Make events of everything you do and don’t be shy about inviting people: invite everybody you know. Think about what works for you. I no longer read newsletters, because there are too many. Think of other ways: instead of making newsletters or doing it on Facebook, you can do it by hand. As long as it fits your concept or your way of working.
Liesbet: That sounds quite logical, but it doesn’t happen so much.
Thierry: Because it’s so difficult. Nobody likes change, but it’s necessary so you have to do it. Or ask somebody else to do it. The next step is to approach journalists. But collaboration is the main thing: if your work is related to fashion, try to connect with fashion designers, etc. You have nothing to lose. Meeting people is most important; you need to work on your network.
Thierry: It makes sense. Don’t design for designers, but for people. Other designers are your competitors and they won’t buy from you. This niche is your comfort zone.
Liesbet: But how do you get your work outside this hermetic zone?
Thierry: I would start with people close to you. To give an example, maybe you now a friend who works in a shop where you can show your work. What’s more, make your work available on Facebook and the Internet. Make events of everything you do and don’t be shy about inviting people: invite everybody you know. Think about what works for you. I no longer read newsletters, because there are too many. Think of other ways: instead of making newsletters or doing it on Facebook, you can do it by hand. As long as it fits your concept or your way of working.
Liesbet: That sounds quite logical, but it doesn’t happen so much.
Thierry: Because it’s so difficult. Nobody likes change, but it’s necessary so you have to do it. Or ask somebody else to do it. The next step is to approach journalists. But collaboration is the main thing: if your work is related to fashion, try to connect with fashion designers, etc. You have nothing to lose. Meeting people is most important; you need to work on your network.
[...]
Hilde: Can you change a school into a brand?
Thierry: We did a lot of branding for schools. For example, for the Wellesley College close to Boston and for Polimoda Fashion School in Florence, led by Linda Loppa. She wanted to change the image of the school. The first idea we presented was not to use a logo, because Polimoda is such a great name. Recently, another school wanted to focus on the dialogue between teachers and alumni. Here we also said ‘no logo’ but all communication would take the form of a ‘dialogue’.
Liesbet: You mentioned earlier that branding follows good work, but branding Polimoda had to provide a better school…
Thierry: Linda Loppa said that the communication part helped her bring about change in the school, outwards but also within the school. That makes sense and if people use it, it works.
Shana: How important is a logo for a designer? Does it give something extra? Does it make you appear more professional?
Thierry: Compared to the past, when the logo was loaded, it is no longer so important. A logo is not a brand; it’s more like a signature. If you use a logo – or maybe a typeface is even better to use – you have to be consistent – and not boring – by always using the same one. It forms the handwriting. Chanel is an example of a good typeface. Even if you type something else, you can still recognize it. They do a lot of new things, but always in the Chanel way. The same goes for Apple. They communicate so well with the public. Everything is ‘packaged’ as a benefit for you, not for them.
Thierry: We did a lot of branding for schools. For example, for the Wellesley College close to Boston and for Polimoda Fashion School in Florence, led by Linda Loppa. She wanted to change the image of the school. The first idea we presented was not to use a logo, because Polimoda is such a great name. Recently, another school wanted to focus on the dialogue between teachers and alumni. Here we also said ‘no logo’ but all communication would take the form of a ‘dialogue’.
Liesbet: You mentioned earlier that branding follows good work, but branding Polimoda had to provide a better school…
Thierry: Linda Loppa said that the communication part helped her bring about change in the school, outwards but also within the school. That makes sense and if people use it, it works.
Shana: How important is a logo for a designer? Does it give something extra? Does it make you appear more professional?
Thierry: Compared to the past, when the logo was loaded, it is no longer so important. A logo is not a brand; it’s more like a signature. If you use a logo – or maybe a typeface is even better to use – you have to be consistent – and not boring – by always using the same one. It forms the handwriting. Chanel is an example of a good typeface. Even if you type something else, you can still recognize it. They do a lot of new things, but always in the Chanel way. The same goes for Apple. They communicate so well with the public. Everything is ‘packaged’ as a benefit for you, not for them.
[...]
Clarisse: I would like to work for more galleries, besides Valerie Traan Gallery and Gallery RA, but I don’t know how to present myself to other galleries.
Thierry: You’ll have great meetings with gallerists if you listen more than you talk. The fact that you are interested and want to understand everything can make them a better gallerist.
Shana: How important is a business card? How strong do you profile yourself?
Thierry: You need to leave things open. The question is rather, which card do you have to give so that he wants to keep it? The simplest way is to sit at the table and write down your name. The BaseDesign business cards are super simple. It says ‘I am …’ where you have to fill in your name and underneath you find ‘and we are Base’. On the back you find an e-mail and Skype address. It took us two months to develop this concept, but it makes a difference. It triggers the mind. A card is good, but it’s only 10 per cent.
Hugo: It’s all about communication.
Thierry: You’ll have great meetings with gallerists if you listen more than you talk. The fact that you are interested and want to understand everything can make them a better gallerist.
Shana: How important is a business card? How strong do you profile yourself?
Thierry: You need to leave things open. The question is rather, which card do you have to give so that he wants to keep it? The simplest way is to sit at the table and write down your name. The BaseDesign business cards are super simple. It says ‘I am …’ where you have to fill in your name and underneath you find ‘and we are Base’. On the back you find an e-mail and Skype address. It took us two months to develop this concept, but it makes a difference. It triggers the mind. A card is good, but it’s only 10 per cent.
Hugo: It’s all about communication.
LINKS
Base Design:www.basedesign.com
Blog Base Design:www.basenow.net
Visionandfactory:www.visionandfactory.com
Blog Base Design:www.basenow.net
Visionandfactory:www.visionandfactory.com